I'm not so sure about passifists not arguing. I'm a passifist, ask anyone that knows me, but I'll argue you till the end of the world (or I get bored, or the other person actually makes such a solid issue that I piss and moan, whine and walk away).

I can't tell you anything about being married. I've never made that mistake in life. As a given, I more than likely will at some point because that's what I seem to be good at doing, making mistakes. What I can tell you is I don't know a single person that's happy in their marriage at the moment. Except maybe my mother, but it's her second marrige...anyway.

I definately think that your theory on self is correct, Poppmiester. We do tend, in the beginning bliss of relationships, to subtract from, or even add to our projected image in order to make the target of our musing more attracted to us. We may make compromises too early that eventually lead to arguments at the dreaded six month period, pre-marriage of course. Or we may forget about the things that kept us from feeling depression before we met this new partner. We may disregaurd our friends or personal projects because their need as a place holder has been paused for the moment. In the end, the partner becomes a block to these things we once needed for mental stability.

So my question is. Do we really take the other person for granted? Or could it be that we place too little importance on our free time, our alone time? Before you know it that alone time that you begin to miss when you start saying things like, "she's smothering me." But like I said, I'm not married, so what do I know? I guess what I'm trying to say is relationships can alter us in small ways at times. Eventually we end up yerning for the person we were before we met our mate. Before we added or subtracted. We entertain fantasies of the life we once invisioned for the future and compare them to the present we're living now. If those fantasies do not old up to what we though life would one day be like with our mates, we begin to grow weary of having that person around.

Granted these feeling can be temporary as the logical part of your brain sets in. Then you get that strange voice in your head that says, "You'll never find anyone better than her." That's the point where the real trouble begins because it's no longer about anyone at all except -- you and your self-pity. Something I know more than I care to about.

I don't think it has to do with selflessness but rather....truth. , The truth about ourselves, , the truth that we don't dare let anyone in on. The truth about the human condition.

The more time you spend with someone the more truth is revealed especially in a serious relationship. The more you try to hide a basic fundamental truth about yourself or about how you trully feel, however insignifigant or horrific, the harder it becomes to maintain a healthy relationship.

Your instincts sense these betrails of truth and it manefests in different and unexplainable ways in your conscious life, both in the ones that are being denied truth as well as the one witholding truth.

Not telling a lie is not the same thing as telling the truth.
I think the problem is that most people are ashamed of or don't know how to express the truth about themselves. The irony is that if you can't tell the ones you love then whats the point of being loved. (I am talking about relationships and friendships).

I'd really like to comment on both those comments because I thought they were both really good (in different ways). Instead, though, I'm going to wait to see if some of the people that have been married for a little while will respond.

Well, I'm on my second marriage. There won't be a third one!! I think marriages are as unique as people are. I'm very happy with my current marriage. But there is a HUGE difference between the situation I was in when I was married before, the person I was married to, and the person I was when I was married before. My whole life is completely different now. That being said, I also think that my current wife is a better personality fit for me. I'm pretty lazy, so a lot of times I need someone to kick me in the ass, even if I don't want them too. My wife is really good at that.

I think that everything that you guys are saying is good advice. I also think that young people shouldn't get married. (of course there is always an exception) I think it's very important for you to have most of your major growing up done before you even think about getting married. I think that in everyone's life there are points where they change completely into different people. Their ideas change, their goals change, their morals may even change. I think there is a level of maturity that has to be reached before you can deal with your own partners changes over the years. But I think that probably goes back to what bpopp was saying about selflessness.

selflessness makes a lot of sense, brian. melissa and i have been married since she was 18 and i 22 (gotta raise them up right, and all). dying to one's self is the only way to live with someone else. so...happy death, my friend.

Hehe....A friend told me yesterday that he is getting married, and I said "Welcome to the Land of the Dead!" I told him I was kidding of course, and that I couldn't be happier for him. This particular friend is definitely selfless when it comes to his girlfriends. He has always put them first, above his own needs, and given of himself completely. Until now, of course, he has gotten run over for it. I'm so glad he finally found someone that is willing to do the same for him. They both put the other before their own needs, and it has shown in their love for each other. But like you said Brian, that is usually true in the beginning. After a while, people tend to lose sight of who they were when they fell in love. That's where I think the most important thing that will keep couples together comes in: Communication.

Selflessness is one of many things that make a strong and happy marriage. But I have always thought that communication was the most important thing. You can give and give of yourself until there is nothing left, and without communicating properly with one another, your spouse won't even know you resent the fact that you have "lost" yourself. I truly think that if couples were totally forthcoming about their feelings, that selflessness would last longer than the initial "courting" period. I know that my husband will stew, and be mad at me for something for months, and never tell me, until he's already so irate, that there's nothing I can do about it. I suppose he is trying to not be selfish, and trying not to hurt my feelings. But by bottling it up, he ends up resenting me.

I also think ,even though I agree that selflessness is important, there is a point where you can lose yourself completely. I have gone through a few identity crises myself. If you give of yourself to all your loved ones, it can make you feel as if the "real" you is buried. I sometimes feel that I have become a wife and mother, and I had no other life before I became that. It feels as if they forget I was around long before I became "Mrs. Howell, mother to Austin and Katie"
So, yes, you have to "die to one's self" to a point. But you also have to remember who you were that your spouse fell in love with in the first place. You have to ultimately stay true to who you are.

Selflessness. Such a beautiful word with so much meaning. Completely sacrificing ones self for someone or something else. Like communism its looks so wonderful on paper... but in reality we seem to fall short. I think that your right Brians. Selflessness is a great way to have a flourishing relationship. But I think that Ghostpalm is more correct. Selflessness is the death of ones anima and the question is are you ready for the sacrifice. It would seem to me that a good relationship would be one in which each party’s personality meshes so well that there is no need to give up ones self. You see, what happens when one gives, as you said Brian, is that the other becomes complacent and used to the attention so they don’t give back. In order for one not to get run over one must have stand up for what you want. True selflessness is a myth. So when does enough become enough. When do you decide that the other person is just not going to give and move on?
Marriage, and indeed relationships in general are like war. You have to take and give ground otherwise you get dominated. Where the compassion and love come in is not dominating to much. So Brian I say keep your rosy glasses as long as you can, and it sounds to me like you’ll be able to forever. But stock up on artillery and armor and keep your eyes to the north.
I am one of those people that Bkid was talking about not being happy in his marriage now so perhaps I am just jaded and confused. But I am still at least 50% sure that I believe in the institution of marriage and that it is a good and wonderful thing. And I do love my wife very much which is why I can even comment on this subject. The only advise that I can give is honesty, not selflessness, honesty full and brutal.

In an attempt to clear up some confusion, I spent some time looking up the literal meanings of the what it is to be married. The best I could find was:

mar·ry
"to unite in the closest and most endearing relation."

en·dear·ing
"Inspiring affection or warm sympathy."


So now let's compare what we know to be definative to:

selfless·ness
"acting with less concern for yourself than for the success of the joint activity"

It would seem that selflessness and marriage, just based on definition alone would go hand in hand. Like Gidian9 says, "...it looks great on paper." The true question is, how much can one be so selfless before you truely become just a crutch to the other? Or a shell of your former self. Certainly everyone wants to be waited on when their sick or they've had a bad day, but at what cost to the other? If the marriage was orginally a union of two people and you take one away, do you really have a marriage anymore? Mathimatically 1+1 really is two, just as 2-1 really is one. But, that's when it hit me. In marrige, 1+1=1.

But like I said before. I'm not married, nor have I any intent of ever being, so what do I know?


source: dictionary.com and the ramblings of a lost mind

I used to place a lot more value on honesty than I do now. This website, initially, was an altar to that ideal, in fact. I found, though, that by being honest, you have to be ready to hurt a lot of people. Unless, of course, you paint the truth with a gloss of sweetness (which is dishonesty really). Not to put Cam (scipio) on the spot, but he is my hero in this regard. It's easy to be frank behind the anonymity of a website, but Cam does it all the time with everyone he meets. He says exactly what he thinks, even when it's not "appropriate". Early on it was really uncomfortable for me, but eventually I grew to admire and appreciate it. I've tried it under controlled conditions and it just never works. I don't care if someone is pissed at me because they disagree with me, but I hate to hurt people's feelings.

Blueyes: I agree about communication being very important, but I still think it takes a back seat to selflessness. Let's use Von's laziness as an example (hehe). Say his wife communicates to him every day that she needs him to do something for her. Maybe she needs him to change the oil in her car or she needs him to go do something at the bank. Unless he is selfless and places her needs above his own (playing counterstrike), she will most likely be disappointed and unhappy with him.

Yeah von... you don't have a wife... you have a mother.
How long do you think it is going to take your wife to get tired of wet nursing you all the time.

I think the person you married is the single biggest difference in your life... you seem to be relatively unchanged.
I think you are more or less exactly the same as you were when you were with your first wife, the difference being is that your wife now doesn't take advantage of you.

hehe...trust me, if she gets tired of it...You'll know! Cuz, I'll have to call you if I need something!!

Wedding woes is right.. I didnt even celebrate my first anniv. this past sunday. I was also married once before this.. It was my starter marriage, of course. My wuzband and I had no communication what so ever during that marriage. Now, with my current marriage, I think we have far tooo much communication, but only online. NEVER in person, which absolutely sucks. He and I can hide behind the computer and lash out to one another, but cannot do it face to face.. Then this escalates into some huge gnarly insane fight that lasts for days... total silence when we are around one another. I can say, I do give my all to him, but he on the other hand, has reverted back to his bachelor days of being selfish and wanting TO FIND HIMself again and his creativity because I have sucked his creative energy from him this past year. (BULLSHIT). HE must find it alone and he cannot do it with me. F'in bullshit man. Fucking men.. why do men tend to be more selfish than women???