So you're telling me that you never saw Christopher Lowell? He's not gay (or at least he claims to not be), yet he sure as shit talks the talk (and if you ever saw him swish.... er... walk, you'd say he walks the walk too).

Then there's the one guy on Trading Spaces... Vern, he sure seems gay-ish.

Anyway, the better question isn't why is there homosexuality, it's why is there heterosexuality, why isn't everyone bisexual to some extent? When you start looking at it from that point of view, you think about things like brain chemistry and it all starts to make sense. Mental disorders occur left and right in otherwise normal humans, the simple overabundance of a chemical by 10 or 15% can cause serious mental deviations. We don't even know what chemical imbalance causes aberrations such as pedophelia. Yet. There are things that we know about women and men who are gay and their brain scans, when compared to members of the opposite sex who are heterosexual. There when brains are examined, the gay members of one sex match the heterosexual members of the opposite sex.

The belief of nurture over nature would appear to be in question many times when you look over forensic evidence. It may turn out that certain portions of the brain controls natural attraction, telling you whether you like a blonde or brunette, a dominant person or a submissive one, a man or a woman, even whether you want to have vanilla sex tonight or some wild and kinky stuff. We might even get lucky enough to find a way to fix the more deviant abberations (such as pedofelia) or change preferences for an evening or longer. Your wife likes the idea of you and another guy fooling around with her? You adjust your preferences to match what she's looking for, after the day is over, you take a chemical to counter what you took before and you're back to normal.

However, you asked a good question... 'who would make "that" choice?' and there are people. Some of them have the tendency already, others simply want to be a pariah, the need to not only be rejected by your peers, but by society as a whole can be overwhelming for some people. The need to be something special and exceptional is so desperate that they can't realize that what they want is not what they're doing.

The best question though is what the hell are you doing listening to Howard Stern? That has to be one of the most anti-intellectual radio shows out there. He plays off all emotional and intellectual weaknesses that people have, much as a 9 year old does in school, he's barely above making fun of people because of their names... wait, he does that, doesn't he? Nevermind, he lacks anything that resembles intellectuality.

Dammit, I typed something, clicked on a link, came back and everything I typed was gone! Anyway, sorry I haven't been vocal in a while on here. I appreciate the opportunity Brian gives people to give their opinion. However, I must respectfully disagree. The Bible is very specific that homosexuality is a sin. That's not what I want to discuss though. All I have to say is that I feel a homosexual CAN change his or her ways. I once thought like Brian. I used to take what I heard and went with it. Reading authors who say it is OK to be gay because it is in their human nature. It is a chemical inbalance that makes someone choose homosexuality over the opposite sex. I used to fully believe that. Being a Christian, that used to haunt me. Why would God tell people it's a sin yet give them the chemical inbalance to keep them from doing it the way He intended? Then I came across a program called Love In Action. They are a non-profit organization that takes those homosexuals that want to come out of the lifestyle and change for the better. I used to think it was a hopeless cause until I heard of people graduating. I had my doubts about those that graduated. That was all before I met any of them. My mind was changed so much that one of them actually was my roommate for about 6 months. After speaking with him a lot, speaking with others that have graduated, and speaking with those still in the program, I have been told that those that don't graduate and those that drop out are those that didn't even want to change in the first place. They were forced to go because their messed up parents disowned them and they would do anything for their love. Those that drop out are also those that solinear spoke of (society made so much fun of them that they were pushed into the lifestyle (did I understand you correctly?)) and never really wanted to change in the first place. They didn't have the drive to succeed. I feel people can be pushed into the lifestyle by those reasons given above. However, unlike some, I do feel they can be brought out of it. I've seen it happen. I would have never believed it unless I saw it. I'm not claiming to know anything about chemical imbalances (however, I am borderline dyslexic and have heard phsycologysts talk about chemical imbalances in my two brothers who are both dyslexic, but I am no expert). I just have to conclude that there it is not a chemical imbalance that causes it because it has been overcome without medication. I would tend to agree with solinear that they have been pushed into it in one way or another but it can be reversed. I encourage you guys to check out the program. Read into the lessons taught there. I think the website is a *.org site. I don't know the URL but it can't be hard to find. You just might change your mind. If not, thanks anyway for reading.

www.loveinaction.org

Quote: I just have to conclude that there it is not a chemical imbalance that causes it because it has been overcome without medication. I would tend to agree with solinear that they have been pushed into it in one way or another but it can be reversed.

With all due respect, I feel that is pure bullshit. I do believe that there have been people who have "overcome" a period in their lives when they were experimenting, or have been traumatized due to rape or incest or whatever. Sometimes people turn towards an alternative lifestyle for many reasons. But "true" homosexuals aren't making a choice, they are simply not attracted to the opposite sex. Both Solinear and Elian talked of people being pushed into a lifestyle. Well, I think the people who have gone to Love in Action, were in some way pushed to try and "overcome" being gay. But there's no way you can tell me that those female highschool gym teachers out there who have more testosterone than most men, are choosing to just be deviant. I guess that's where the chemical imbalance comes into place. But these people were born this way. When the sperm met the egg, there was something in those chromosomes that just wasn't right. People born like that, who go to Love in Action, and actually say they have overcome their homosexuality, are lying to themselves and everyone else.

Blueyez, I don't see how you can see these people who have overcome it are lying to themselves unless you yourself have tried it. Your last statement implies that you are gay. If that is the case, then there is still no way you can be sure of your view since you have not even tried to overcome it. Maybe I am just confused. You are stating a point and giving no backup for your argument. Could you provide me with some so that I may better understand your point of view? Could you show me a case study where it is concluded that a chrososome was "contaminated" (for lack of a better word) with homosexual gene? I'm just looking for some backup from you.

I heard that same convo on Howard Stern too. I think the guy is/was definitely gay. The dream the guy had was VERY detailed. He's in denial. I think his southern roots make him feel it's bad/dirty or some what ashamed to be labeled GAY. It's sad.

I have numerous friends that are gay and most of them only want to be with their same sex..never the opposite. I do feel there is some sort of chemical balance with lesbians, actually. Sometimes, (in a case study I read) for women who do not have enough estrogen to balance out their progesterone and can produce too much testosterone, in turn grow facial hair. I'm not saying that all women who have high testesterone levels are gay..but in the study they found that the women who had high test. levels were gay. Also, I do feel if a female had a bad experience (rape or child abuse by a male) might tend to favor another female. You tend to see more lesbianism in sororities as well. I've known a few couples who were sorority sisters and later became partners. AND are still together.

I do feel that some men, who are gay, could have experienced a homosexual act with their friend at a young age or there was some sort of child abuse by a male which led them into this life style. Homosexuality goes back in history soo many years. The statue of David is a huge icon for male homosexuals. There is nothing wrong with being gay. It's sad that other's find it hard to accept another person's individuality in our society. I've always been afraid of Priests from my friends talking about church "experiences" even before the CATHOLIC scandal in Boston. Or stories about Boy Scout Leaders.

Well first and foremost, I am a lesbian. And, I would like to point out some viewpoints as someone who has lived and breathed this lifestyle for about 10 years now. Well, actually, I can recall being about 5 years old and kissing a girl underneath the picnic table. I also remember being scolded by my mother for that and thinking all my life that I wasn't supposed to kiss girls. I was what you called a "goodie-two shoes." I didn't drink my first drop of alcohol until I was around 21. I've never done any hardcore drugs. I've never been abused physically, verbally, emotionally. My parents raised me to be kind, considerate, loving and most importantly, to believe in God and of course, the Bible. So some of you might ask "What went wrong?" And I would say, well, finally something went RIGHT. I always felt more natural being around the "girls." It's not some sick, perverted lifestyle for everyone. I will admit that there are a lot of crazy lesbians and whoremongers in the homosexual world, but for that matter, I've seen it in the heterosexual world as well. And, as far as choosing this lifestyle, I actually fought the lifestyle for many years. I didn't have my first sexual experience with another woman until I was 21. And yes, that was about the time that I started "partying", but you have to remember that I was always all about the girls growing up. I didn't turn into some alcoholic/drug addict and become a lesbian. Actually, the woman I had been dating led a very unhealthly lifestyle, but I was very naive back then. I guess I am still naive to some degree these days. For three years after that, I tried to date men and it definitely was NOT what I felt comfortable doing. I will have to agree that these days being gay is somewhat of a "fad." But, let's get real, there have been and will always be struggles in life for anyone who is gay whether it's being afraid of walking out of their house because there neighbor is homophobic or whether it's some male with too much testosterone built up in their system and wants to turn a lesbian straight. There is one thing that I would like to say about a comment Blueyez made.......it's not about something going wrong with the chromosomes........it's about who God has made you whether you are white, black, female, male hetero or homo.

Quote: it's not about something going wrong with the chromosomes........it's about who God has made you whether you are white, black, female, male hetero or homo.

Ok, fair enough. Maybe that was a bad example. But I just didn't agree with Elian's statements about the fact that anyone can "overcome" homosexuality. Yes, I'm sure there are instances of something like Love in Action working, on people who aren't truly gay. But in general, I find it hard to believe that some organization can stop an individual from being turned on by what turns them on!

Elian, no I am not gay. I am a (sometimes )happliy married woman. But I would be lying if I said I didn't see the beauty or sensuality of other women. I haven't ever acted on that, and don't intend to. Men, in general, are who I am attracted to and the male body turns me on. But I think most people, at some time in their lives, even if they never told a soul about it, have felt some sort of sexual feeling towards a person of the same sex. I have a heterosexual male friend who nearly drools over Eddie Vedder, and has probably gotten a hard-on watching him sing "Masters of War". But he's not gay. If he ever got drunk and "experimented" with another man, he would probably wake up, hate himself, decide he's gay, have homosexual sex for a while, hear about Love in Action, and be "cured". But he was never really gay in the first place!
Anyway, my point is: someone who is born gay, will always be gay, and no self-help group is going to truly change them.

Did you see A Beautiful Mind? That was mental illness. That was also a very true story. I can't remember the guys name right now, but he overcame that illness without the medication. Sure, in the end, he still saw those hallucinations, but it didn't show. He just kind of ignored them. I think that's what these love in action people are doing. Just figured out a way to Ignore their true feelings. I suppose that there could be a very few amount of people who say they are gay just for some sort of effect, but I find it hard to believe. I mean, could you imagine suppressing your sexual desires? To me that would be way to difficult a task. Especially in this day and age where gay people aren't really outcasts like they used to be. If I was into my neighbor guy friend, and he really got me hot when I saw him out mowing his grass (LOL). I'm serious, that would be too disturbing. I couldn't deal with it on a daily basis over and over. Eventually it would have to come out...

errr...that was me.

First of all, it's about d*mn time someone commented on this. I was afraid I had offended people with the title. I just used it because one of Howard Stern's callers was taunting his confused "straight guy" with the question.

I personally don't believe its physical. If it was, doctors could "cure" it or at least identify it (God knows they've tried to do both). Sexual orientation and sexual disorders (pedophilia, etc.) are not something that can be easily reversed. Elian, I'm not sure exactly who you are talking about, but I have heard of at least one person at your church who has "slipped" several times in their road to recovery. I'm not judging.. just stating what I've heard. I couldn't change.. could you?

I guess its possible that a person with a very low sex drive could probably overcome it with an very strong act of will, but its definitely the exception and I don't even really consider that a victory. They're still gay.. they're just pretending not to be. The court system has also identified that sexual deviants are very seldom rehabilitated. I found this in the newsgroups from a struggling lesbian:

Quote: Has anyone been in an ex-gay ministry? Does it work? I got my packet from Love In Action Ministry's residential program today and I'm planning on signing up as soon as I turn 18. There's a very long, very convincing essay by a former lesbian on their website (www.loveinaction.org).

This is my last shot at being a breeder. Please help me.

The first response:

Quote: Don't do it! Research has shown that such "ministries" have a 3% success rate measured over one year, and a 0% success rate measured over five years, but they have a 5% suicide rate. They cannot change people's orientation, they can only turn them back into closet cases. The same-sex desires don't go away. There isn't a single VERIFIABLE case of somebody's sexual orientation ever having been changed in either direction, gay -> straight or straight -> gay. The only people with "choice" to some degree are bisexuals of various degrees.

The second response:

Quote: You have to wonder about the kind of people who consider a suicide rate higher than the cure rate a success.

The ex-gays poster child John Paulk was found in a gay bar having a gay old time.Two of the founders of exodus international married each other(two guys) and now claim the whole thing is a fraud. This should tell you how well ex gay mnistries work.

You can look up ex-ex gay in a search engine. This is sort of a support group for people screwed up by ex gay ministries.

Granted, there's no reference for these statistics, but as I said initially, I have heard similar findings elsewhere. I did the quick search one of them recommended and found numerous articles supporting what he said. This one illustrates that this guy, Paulk is a perfect example of how unlikely "conversion" really is. It's obvious from the dialog that he slipped. Before you get too pissed off at Betty, I think she is supposed to be a joke. The rest of her site looks satirical, although she may just be that obnoxious.

Again, if you weren't so lucky as to be "normal", do you think you could change because someone else thinks you should?

Experimenting with boys (or girls) does not cause homosexuality. When I was very young, I can remember experimenting with the kids in my neighborhood (boys and girls). I don't really consider it sexual because there were no sexual feelings involved. I was too young to get an erection so I guess we were just curious. I personally believe that a person's first truely sexual experience has a lot to do with their orientation and desires.

Groovyluck, can you remember your first sexual experience? The picnic table incident is interesting, but 5 is probably too young.

I was lying in bed last night , and I got to thinking about this some more. I thought maybe I had contributed enough as a devil's advocate and I could leave it alone. However, after reading Brian's last post, the same thoughts I had last night rise up in me again. The following comments may be another post for another time.

What happens to those that WANT to change? Everything I have heard everyone say on this post so far is "Give it up. It can't be done." I think the appropriate word here is hope. If there is no hope, why try right? Why not believe someone can do it? My boss has this quote in her office. It goes "Everything that can be invented has been." by the head of the patent office in 1899. If everyone took this guy's word for what it was, everyone would have given up trying to cure things, making entertainment devices, etc... Here is a cliche for you "Hope springs eternal". What has happened to our society? Why are people striving and striving to cure cancer? Cause they have hope. Why can't these people who want to change have hope that they can? Why are people so easy to give up? Why are people so cynical? Human nature maybe? If you answered yes to the last question I have a followup argument. If our human nature causes us to by cynical and give up at adversity, I know that can be fixed. Just look at all the famous people in history that worked hard to get to where they are and did not give up at the first sign of adversity. If you agree that human nature can be altered where people don't give up and can succeed, then you would have to agree (if you also agree that homosexuality is not chemical) that the human nature of a persons sexual preference can be changed. Brian, you are right. I think it works both ways.

I guess my entire question revolves around why people choose to bring down those that are trying to help themselves? Why do those critics tell those who are trying to give up? Why is their hope so dead? Maybe this is a utopian viewpoint. Matter of fact, it IS a utopian viewpoint. But isn't that what we are to strive for?